Philosophu Talk Philosophu Talk    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. Goto page 1, 2  Next          Philosophu Talk Forum Index -> Philosophu Talk View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message mark Guest Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. X-No-Archive: yes hello playmates.... Here are some more in the new series of unanswered questions regarding atheism. These are in no order of importance and are for week ending the 6th July 2008. [Many thanks to all the posters who have contributed these questions] From David WG ... regarding "Moral Laws" (as proposed by dilv) [QUESTION} "What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed them?" It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice made to escape such moral dogma. So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective. Does subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral* to be an atheist. Can there be a clear, measurable description of morality ...with examples that are absolutely quantifiable. .....more (un)answered questions next week. [care of posters to this ng..] Mark Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Ken Guest Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. On Jul 2, 6:52 am, "mark" <no-oneh...@noads.com> wrote: Quote: X-No-Archive: yes hello playmates.... Here are some more in the new series of unanswered questions regarding atheism. These are in no order of importance and are for week ending the 6th July 2008. [Many thanks to all the posters who have contributed these questions] From David WG  ...  regarding "Moral Laws"  (as proposed by dilv) [QUESTION} "What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed them?" It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice made to escape such moral dogma. So,  can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective.  Does subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral* to be an atheist. Can there be a clear, measurable  description of morality ...with examples that are absolutely quantifiable. ....more (un)answered questions next week. [care of posters to this ng..] Mark Thanks you for showing that someone other than DILV (who thinks he now owns, runs and controls this group) can propose subjects for discussion..Ken Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor IlBeBauck@gmail.com Guest Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. On Jul 2, 8:52 am, "mark" <no-oneh...@noads.com> wrote: Quote: X-No-Archive: yes hello playmates.... Here are some more in the new series of unanswered questions regarding atheism. These are in no order of importance and are for week ending the 6th July 2008. [Many thanks to all the posters who have contributed these questions] From David WG  ...  regarding "Moral Laws"  (as proposed by dilv) [QUESTION} "What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed them?" It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice made to escape such moral dogma. So,  can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective.  Does subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral* to be an atheist. Can there be a clear, measurable  description of morality ...with examples that are absolutely quantifiable. ue ....more (un)answered questions next week. [care of posters to this ng..] Mark REPLY: Good question Mark. The answer is most definetly YES....the tenets of atheism leads to what we see as societal ills today as far as immorality is concerned --- particularly sexual hedonism (freedom) .Im going to devote a treatise to this subject in our new Series. Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor sandi Guest Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. On Jul 2, 1:34 pm, "IlBeBa...@gmail.com" <IlBeBa...@gmail.com> wrote: REPLY:  Good question Mark.  The answer is most definetly......(it's spelled "definitely") WRONG.........per usual (It's ALWAYS cums down to sex with DILV) Why do you keep evading this subject? REPLY: I know of no other Theist/Christian who answers questions from the Critics as much as i do in NG's ME" Of course, don't mean questions like those below, that I've asked over a DOZEN times, the answers to which would provide insight into your mental state, not only to others but even to yourself? Do you see the world only in black and white, good and evil, right and wrong? Do you noticed a detachment from your job, friends or relatives or a breakdown in your personal relationships? Do you think you've ever had special messages from your god or that your god can fix all your problems? What about your uncompromising judgmental attitudes or shame-based belief that you aren't good enough as you exist today? How about your overt attitude of righteousness or superiority? Do you find yourself in daily conflict with science, medicine, and education, but spend excessive amounts of your time obsessive praying, going to church, crusades, and quoting scripture? Sandy Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor sandi Guest Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. On Jul 2, 2:25 pm, "Dr.Hal0nf1r£$" <fem...@nospam.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid> wrote: Quote: What's so terrible about freedom? Are you a bondage queen? --http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk Personalised Desktop Computers I'm sure Dimwit has a closet (pun fully intended) full of leather bondage accessories, various sex toys (with detailed instructions), blowup dolls (human or otherwise), glossy sex magazines, and such. Picture him (curtains pulled, doors locked, phone off the hook) and his 250+ pounds squeezed into thigh-high motorcycle boots, black leather cap, with thong and a spiky dog collar whilst observing some x- rated gay mpegs on his PC. So much for dinner, eh? Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Alwyn Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:07 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. In article <XKSdnanpOc67FfbVnZ2dnUVZ8v-dnZ2d@bt.com>, "mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote: Quote: [QUESTION} "What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed them?" It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice made to escape such moral dogma. Well, suppose a primitive morality is built into human nature. Don't we all believe in kindness, fairness, etc.? If so, then absolute morality is a reality. Quote: So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective. Does subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral* to be an atheist. A completely absolute moral system would be too rigid to change with society. We may have some absolute moral principles, but the details of how people should act vary from society to society and, to a lesser extent, from individual to individual. Quote: Can there be a clear, measurable description of morality ...with examples that are absolutely quantifiable. No, ethics is not that kind of subject matter; it is qualitative rather than quantitative. I can say that a certain act is better than another, but I could never put a figure on by how much. Alwyn Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Dr.Hal0nf1r£$ Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote: Quote: On Jul 2, 8:52 am, "mark" <no-oneh...@noads.com> wrote: X-No-Archive: yes hello playmates.... Here are some more in the new series of unanswered questions regarding atheism. These are in no order of importance and are for week ending the 6th July 2008. [Many thanks to all the posters who have contributed these questions] From David WG ... regarding "Moral Laws" (as proposed by dilv) [QUESTION} "What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed them?" It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice made to escape such moral dogma. So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective. Does subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral* to be an atheist. Can there be a clear, measurable description of morality ...with examples that are absolutely quantifiable. ue ....more (un)answered questions next week. [care of posters to this ng..] Mark REPLY: Good question Mark. The answer is most definetly YES....the tenets of atheism leads to what we see as societal ills today as far as immorality is concerned --- particularly sexual hedonism (freedom) .Im going to devote a treatise to this subject in our new Series. What's so terrible about freedom? Are you a bondage queen? -- http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk Personalised Desktop Computers Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor mark Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. X-No-Archive: yes <IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote in message news:86137b87-bb0c-4646-9f73-f00c4f96d2db@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... On Jul 2, 8:52 am, "mark" <no-oneh...@noads.com> wrote: Quote: X-No-Archive: yes hello playmates.... Here are some more in the new series of unanswered questions regarding atheism. These are in no order of importance and are for week ending the 6th July 2008. [Many thanks to all the posters who have contributed these questions] From David WG ... regarding "Moral Laws" (as proposed by dilv) [QUESTION} "What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed them?" It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice made to escape such moral dogma. So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective. Does subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral* to be an atheist. Can there be a clear, measurable description of morality ...with examples that are absolutely quantifiable. ue ....more (un)answered questions next week. [care of posters to this ng..] ***REPLY: Good question Mark. The answer is most definetly YES....*** Is it...? "yes" to which part of the question..? If I were to post a moral conundrum that showed different people would make different judgements..... would you accept morality as being only absolute..? If I did post such moral conundrum that could ONLY be judged differently by different people, would that prove that all morality could NOT BE absolute....If not, why not..? ***the tenets of atheism leads to what we see as societal ills today as far as immorality is concerned *** Can you give some examples of "societal (sic) ills" that are indisputedly caused by *immorality* ... *** particularly sexual hedonism*** Can you elaborate on "sexual hedonism"...? For example, is female circumcision part of a male sexual hedonism..? Is sex between two consenting adults (homo and/or hetro) immoral...? If so, in what way..? Mark Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Alwyn Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. In article <y8WdnSwelIOsP_HVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com>, "mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote: Quote: "Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message news:alwyn-5B03E4.10395603072008@news.virginmedia.com... Now, I think that the belief that one should support one's family is cross-cultural, exactly what this means in practice is not. Hmm.... innate morality or an (innate?) evolutionary desire to ensure survival of the genetic 'family' perhaps..? One set of parents goes out drinking every night and leaves the kids at home to fend for themselves. Another set make enormous sacrifices to ensure that their children get a good start in life. Aren't we justified in saying that the second set are acting more morally than the first, even though one might say there were biological forces at work? Alwyn Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor mark Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. X-No-Archive: yes "Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message news:alwyn-2D96F2.11094803072008@news.virginmedia.com... Quote: In article <y8WdnSwelIOsP_HVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com>, "mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote: "Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message news:alwyn-5B03E4.10395603072008@news.virginmedia.com... Now, I think that the belief that one should support one's family is cross-cultural, exactly what this means in practice is not. Hmm.... innate morality or an (innate?) evolutionary desire to ensure survival of the genetic 'family' perhaps..? One set of parents goes out drinking every night and leaves the kids at home to fend for themselves. Another set make enormous sacrifices to ensure that their children get a good start in life. Aren't we justified in saying that the second set are acting more morally than the first, even though one might say there were biological forces at work? Well, I should be sure about this... but I'm not. In some ways agreeing with you also confirms my notion that morals are subjective. So the idea that we can decide the difference in 'moral values' suggests rather strongly that morals are therefore not absolute..! On the other hand, in many cultures of this world (sadly so...) getting children fed and watered is about the limits of parents capabilities to ensuring they survive... never mind a "good start" Also, there are some cultures where children are handed over to the 'village' community to be raised in the sense of education and cultural learnings and where the parents take an almost inactive role in the childs upbringing. I'm sure we are saying the same thing here but I'm sort of looking for the evidence that suggests morality is not an absolute...[..I'm not asking you to provide that, by the way..! - just discussing it] Mark Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Ian Smith Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. mark wrote: Quote: Well, suppose a primitive morality is built into human nature. Don't we all believe in kindness, fairness, etc.? Ah..... that's the holy grail of cognitive science (in the search for morality...) isn't it..? There is much research that indicate it is not but I accept there are the two camps... There is much research that indicates that it is. I'd recommend Matt Ridley's book "The Origins of Virtue". regards, Ian Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor mark Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. X-No-Archive: yes "Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message news:alwyn-5B03E4.10395603072008@news.virginmedia.com... Quote: In article <q56dnTpxq5YiDfHVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com>, "mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote: "Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message news:alwyn-839E1D.20075302072008@news.virginmedia.com... In article <XKSdnanpOc67FfbVnZ2dnUVZ8v-dnZ2d@bt.com>, "mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote: [QUESTION} "What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed them?" It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice made to escape such moral dogma. Well, suppose a primitive morality is built into human nature. Don't we all believe in kindness, fairness, etc.? Ah..... that's the holy grail of cognitive science (in the search for morality...) isn't it..? There is much research that indicate it is not but I accept there are the two camps... I can recommend the work of Richard Shweder, some of which you can read here: http://humdev.uchicago.edu/shweder-b.html Thank you. Quote: If so, then absolute morality is a reality. So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective. Does subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral* to be an atheist. A completely absolute moral system would be too rigid to change with society. What do you have in mind...? And are those thoughts to do with the moral conventions of society (....and then, which ones) or the belief and acceptance that morality - in some sense - might be innate? 'Family values' is a good example. Most cultures have seen 'family' in terms of all your family members, including grandparents, great uncles, cousins etc., in other words the 'extended family' as opposed to the 'nuclear family' of husband, wife and children that has developed as the result of the mobility of labour required by Western capitalism. For instance, if you are a black African and have a good job, it is very hard to keep any money for yourself because less fortunate family members will turn up at your home expecting you to suppor them, and it is not considered acceptable to turn them away empty-handed. Here in the West, such behaviour would be considered outrageous. Yes. Is this not precisely the conventional (or culturally learned) morality - those 'culturally learned' phenomena that suggest an innate morality is not there...? I suppose the argument might be that if the morality you speak of were innate.. we would/could/should witness it across cultures..? However, I had a similar thought about sex (and/or marriage) with *close* family members. Close being, at least, first or second cousins. Where, in some cultures, this practice is very widely 'accepted' and certainly not seen or regarded as morally inept. There are other cultures, particularly those western christian societies that spring to mind, where this behaviour is absolutely morally repugnant It's good this, isn't it.... we're already discussing morality with different view points (...perhaps!) suggesting that subjectivity is the key...!! Quote: Now, I think that the belief that one should support one's family is cross-cultural, exactly what this means in practice is not. Hmm.... innate morality or an (innate?) evolutionary desire to ensure survival of the genetic 'family' perhaps..? Mark Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor mark Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. X-No-Archive: yes "David Wynne-Griffiths" <davidwg@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:3130303031303439486CA7C104@zetnet.co.uk... Quote: The message <alwyn-5B42E7.09472203072008@news.virginmedia.com from Alwyn <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> contains these words: Then why do conservative evangelicals in the U.S. (also known as non-denominational born-again Christians) have significantly higher divorce rates (34%) than atheists/agnostics (21%) according to the Barna Research Group in 1999? Because most of them are hypocrites? If they have any absolute moral laws they obviously do not follow them as they also top the tables for teen aged pregnancy and crime. So atheists who are without the benefit of the moral laws of the religionists are both more law abiding and lead more responsible lives. Isn't that strange! Oh david......... giving dilv *facts* is not going to impress him. He deals mostly with abstracts and superstition. [having just flipped through a book called "The god who changes lives" - an Alpha Course diatribe - where personal stories are recounted by various people that, in their view, can only be explained by *miracle*. Appeals to science or other explanation - chance even - is dismissed for a superstitious belief system] It is interesting that certain statistics (facts..?) indicate the opposite of the dilv world where christian morality is the holy grail and nirvana of earthy existence. Sad that this chalice of morality, then, leads many more adherents to reject the absolute morality imposed upon them.. Mark Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Alwyn Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. In article <86137b87-bb0c-4646-9f73-f00c4f96d2db@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, "IlBeBauck@gmail.com" <IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote: Quote: the tenets of atheism leads to what we see as societal ills today as far as immorality is concerned --- particularly sexual hedonism (freedom) .Im going to devote a treatise to this subject in our new Series. Then why do conservative evangelicals in the U.S. (also known as non-denominational born-again Christians) have significantly higher divorce rates (34%) than atheists/agnostics (21%) according to the Barna Research Group in 1999? Didn't Jesus say that divorce was a big no-no? Why don't fundamentalist Christians take him at his word? Alwyn Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor David Wynne-Griffiths Guest Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. The message <alwyn-5B42E7.09472203072008@news.virginmedia.com> from Alwyn <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> contains these words: Quote: Then why do conservative evangelicals in the U.S. (also known as non-denominational born-again Christians) have significantly higher divorce rates (34%) than atheists/agnostics (21%) according to the Barna Research Group in 1999? Because most of them are hypocrites? If they have any absolute moral laws they obviously do not follow them as they also top the tables for teen aged pregnancy and crime. So atheists who are without the benefit of the moral laws of the religionists are both more law abiding and lead more responsible lives. Isn't that strange! -- ******** DavidWG ******** Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         Philosophu Talk Forum Index -> Philosophu Talk All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Philosophu Talk----------------Philosophu Talk  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Australian Debt Consolidation Experts medical insurance Wedding Ring Trova Escort e Accompagnatrici sui portali di annunci (EscortForum, ItaliaChiamami, PiccoleTrasgressioni ...) 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