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Ian Smith
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 Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
REPLY: Good question Mark. The answer is most definetly YES....the
tenets of atheism leads to what we see as societal ills today as far
as immorality is concerned --- particularly sexual hedonism
(freedom) .Im going to devote a treatise to this subject in our new
Series.
|
You'd better start with explaining why religious segments of society
appear to have no better record on these issues that less religious
segments, then. Indeed, in some cases they appear worse.
We've already discussed how, proportionately, there appears to be
significantly more of the religious in prison than less religious.
There appears to more violent crime in religious countries (e.g. US
and Nigeria) than less religious (e.g. Scandinavia).
There appears to be more teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted
disease in religious "Silver Ring Thing" communities than the less
religious population at large.
So, in your discussions, can you start by providing some evidence
that atheism does lead to societal ills, rather than the opposite?
Only then can we get down to a serious discussion.
regards, Ian |
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mark
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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X-No-Archive: yes
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-839E1D.20075302072008@news.virginmedia.com...
| Quote: |
In article <XKSdnanpOc67FfbVnZ2dnUVZ8v-dnZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
[QUESTION}
"What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed
them?"
It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice made
to
escape such moral dogma.
Well, suppose a primitive morality is built into human nature. Don't we
all believe in kindness, fairness, etc.?
|
Ah..... that's the holy grail of cognitive science (in the search for
morality...) isn't it..?
There is much research that indicate it is not but I accept there are the
two camps...
| Quote: |
If so, then absolute morality is a reality.
|
| Quote: |
So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective. Does
subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral* to
be
an atheist.
A completely absolute moral system would be too rigid to change with
society.
|
What do you have in mind...? And are those thoughts to do with the moral
conventions of society (....and then, which ones) or the belief and
acceptance that morality - in some sense - might be innate?
| Quote: |
We may have some absolute moral principles, but the details of how
people should act vary from society to society and, to a lesser extent,
from individual to individual.
|
Yes. The case against innate morality........
| Quote: |
Can there be a clear, measurable description of morality ...with
examples
that are absolutely quantifiable.
No, ethics is not that kind of subject matter; it is qualitative rather
than quantitative. I can say that a certain act is better than another,
but I could never put a figure on by how much.
|
Yes. Being unable to quantify the act (deciding that one act is 'better'
or 'worse' is, of course, perhaps the most obvious moral subjectivity..) in
this way is a strong argument against any absolute morality.
However, we are starting to move into complicated cognition and pyschology
and away from the dilv position of using religion as an *absolute* moral
code (..and here we have dilv not understanding what is meant by absolute -
innate - morality reducing it to merely a morality of learned convention)
which is subjective, even, between religions. Subjective, taught and learned
moral codes are not absolute, or innate, moral codes.
It is another area of the evangelical message that is mis-conceived and
mis-understood in that the notion of morality, conveyed by religious
teaching, is an absolute creed....... it isn't, but that is a whole
different scenario to considering whether humankind has innate morality
built in.
Mark |
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Alwyn
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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In article <q56dnTpxq5YiDfHVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
X-No-Archive: yes
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-839E1D.20075302072008@news.virginmedia.com...
In article <XKSdnanpOc67FfbVnZ2dnUVZ8v-dnZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
[QUESTION}
"What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed
them?"
It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice made
to
escape such moral dogma.
Well, suppose a primitive morality is built into human nature. Don't we
all believe in kindness, fairness, etc.?
Ah..... that's the holy grail of cognitive science (in the search for
morality...) isn't it..?
There is much research that indicate it is not but I accept there are the
two camps...
|
I can recommend the work of Richard Shweder, some of which you can read
here:
<http://humdev.uchicago.edu/shweder-b.html>
| Quote: |
If so, then absolute morality is a reality.
So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective. Does
subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral* to
be
an atheist.
A completely absolute moral system would be too rigid to change with
society.
What do you have in mind...? And are those thoughts to do with the moral
conventions of society (....and then, which ones) or the belief and
acceptance that morality - in some sense - might be innate?
|
'Family values' is a good example. Most cultures have seen 'family' in
terms of all your family members, including grandparents, great uncles,
cousins etc., in other words the 'extended family' as opposed to the
'nuclear family' of husband, wife and children that has developed as the
result of the mobility of labour required by Western capitalism. For
instance, if you are a black African and have a good job, it is very
hard to keep any money for yourself because less fortunate family
members will turn up at your home expecting you to suppor them, and it
is not considered acceptable to turn them away empty-handed. Here in the
West, such behaviour would be considered outrageous.
Now, I think that the belief that one should support one's family is
cross-cultural, exactly what this means in practice is not.
Alwyn |
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IlBeBauck@gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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On Jul 2, 4:25 pm, "Dr.Hal0nf1r£$"
<fem...@nospam.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: |
IlBeBa...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jul 2, 8:52 am, "mark" <no-oneh...@noads.com> wrote:
X-No-Archive: yes
hello playmates....
Here are some more in the new series of unanswered questions
regarding atheism.
These are in no order of importance and are for week ending the 6th
July 2008.
[Many thanks to all the posters who have contributed these questions]
From David WG ... regarding "Moral Laws" (as proposed by dilv)
[QUESTION}
"What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what
proclaimed them?"
It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice
made to escape such moral dogma.
So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective. Does
subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral*
to be an atheist.
Can there be a clear, measurable description of morality ...with
examples that are absolutely quantifiable.
ue
....more (un)answered questions next week.
[care of posters to this ng..]
Mark
REPLY: Good question Mark. The answer is most definetly YES.....the
tenets of atheism leads to what we see as societal ills today as far
as immorality is concerned --- particularly sexual hedonism
(freedom) .Im going to devote a treatise to this subject in our new
Series.
What's so terrible about freedom? Are you a bondage queen?
--http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk
Personalised Desktop Computers- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
|
REPLY: Did your Parents raise you to do as you wish , or, did they
teach you restraint for your own good and protection from getting
hurt ? Did they teach you to engage in whatever immorality was
worthwhile to you, or, did they try to instill absolute moral laws to
follow because they knew how important it would be for thier Daughter
in life ? Would they be happy knowing you chose the Bondage Queen
route to take based on deserved entitlement ? You know whats right
from wrong inherently ; why choose whats wrong for yourself Sharron ? |
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Ken
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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|
On Jul 3, 6:02 am, "IlBeBa...@gmail.com" <IlBeBa...@gmail.com> wrote:
snipped the current Bullcrap
REPLY: I know of no other Theist/Christian who answers questions
from the Critics as much as i do in NG's
Still asking questions yet are completely UNWILLING to answer ones
already on the table.
Why is that? |
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Alwyn
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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|
In article <Oa2dnbaBAfqUNPHVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-2D96F2.11094803072008@news.virginmedia.com...
In article <y8WdnSwelIOsP_HVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-5B03E4.10395603072008@news.virginmedia.com...
Now, I think that the belief that one should support one's family is
cross-cultural, exactly what this means in practice is not.
Hmm.... innate morality or an (innate?) evolutionary desire to ensure
survival of the genetic 'family' perhaps..?
One set of parents goes out drinking every night and leaves the kids at
home to fend for themselves. Another set make enormous sacrifices to
ensure that their children get a good start in life.
Aren't we justified in saying that the second set are acting more
morally than the first, even though one might say there were biological
forces at work?
Well, I should be sure about this... but I'm not.
In some ways agreeing with you also confirms my notion that morals are
subjective. So the idea that we can decide the difference in 'moral values'
suggests rather strongly that morals are therefore not absolute..!
|
I don't follow. Could you explain?
| Quote: |
On the other hand, in many cultures of this world (sadly so...) getting
children fed and watered is about the limits of parents capabilities to
ensuring they survive... never mind a "good start"
|
Well, the best possible start, then, given the circumstances. My point
still holds.
| Quote: |
Also, there are some cultures where children are handed over to the
'village' community to be raised in the sense of education and cultural
learnings and where the parents take an almost inactive role in the childs
upbringing.
|
Israeli kibbutz culture is like this, or was in its original form. Many
kibbutz dwellers have now reverted to more traditional forms of child
rearing. Even so, I would imagine that parents in all societies are
thinking they are doing the right thing for their offspring.
| Quote: |
I'm sure we are saying the same thing here but I'm sort of looking for the
evidence that suggests morality is not an absolute...[..I'm not asking you
to provide that, by the way..! - just discussing it]
|
I have suggested that basic values (e.g. fairness, honesty, limitation
of physical harm) are held across all cultures . These values are very
basic, and in practice one encounters all sorts of elaborations that are
determined by culture.
Alwyn |
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mark
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:12 am Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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|
X-No-Archive: yes
<IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:28290510-8ece-4a3d-8e28-07f55ccb7271@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 2, 4:25 pm, "Dr.Hal0nf1r£$"
<fem...@nospam.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: |
IlBeBa...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jul 2, 8:52 am, "mark" <no-oneh...@noads.com> wrote:
X-No-Archive: yes
[QUESTION}
"What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what
proclaimed them?"
It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a choice
made to escape such moral dogma.
So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective. Does
subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it *immoral*
to be an atheist.
Can there be a clear, measurable description of morality ...with
examples that are absolutely quantifiable.
ue
....more (un)answered questions next week.
[care of posters to this ng..]
|
| Quote: |
REPLY: Good question Mark. The answer is most definetly YES....the
tenets of atheism leads to what we see as societal ills today as far
as immorality is concerned --- particularly sexual hedonism
(freedom) .Im going to devote a treatise to this subject in our new
Series.
|
REPLY: Did your Parents raise you to do as you wish , or, did they
teach you restraint for your own good and protection from getting
hurt ? Did they teach you to engage in whatever immorality was
worthwhile to you, or, did they try to instill absolute moral laws to
follow because they knew how important it would be for thier Daughter
in life ? Would they be happy knowing you chose the Bondage Queen
route to take based on deserved entitlement ? You know whats right
from wrong inherently ; why choose whats wrong for yourself Sharron ?
Tell me something dave.... having praised me for asking a "good"
question..... you fail to respond to the further questions raised.....
Can you explain why you cannot, or will not, answer questions posed to
you...?
Mark |
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Un Saved
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer (Dave) |
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I only live a few miles from you & your cult (er I mean "church") why
havent you invited me? |
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Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
|
|
IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 2, 4:25 pm, "Dr.Hal0nf1r£$"
fem...@nospam.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
IlBeBa...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jul 2, 8:52 am, "mark" <no-oneh...@noads.com> wrote:
X-No-Archive: yes
hello playmates....
Here are some more in the new series of unanswered questions
regarding atheism.
These are in no order of importance and are for week ending the 6th
July 2008.
[Many thanks to all the posters who have contributed these
questions]
From David WG ... regarding "Moral Laws" (as proposed by dilv)
[QUESTION}
"What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what
proclaimed them?"
It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a
choice made to escape such moral dogma.
So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective.
Does subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it
*immoral* to be an atheist.
Can there be a clear, measurable description of morality ...with
examples that are absolutely quantifiable.
ue
....more (un)answered questions next week.
[care of posters to this ng..]
Mark
REPLY: Good question Mark. The answer is most definetly YES....the
tenets of atheism leads to what we see as societal ills today as far
as immorality is concerned --- particularly sexual hedonism
(freedom) .Im going to devote a treatise to this subject in our new
Series.
What's so terrible about freedom? Are you a bondage queen?
--http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk
Personalised Desktop Computers- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
REPLY: Did your Parents raise you to do as you wish , or, did they
teach you restraint for your own good and protection from getting
hurt ? Did they teach you to engage in whatever immorality was
worthwhile to you, or, did they try to instill absolute moral laws to
follow because they knew how important it would be for thier Daughter
in life ? Would they be happy knowing you chose the Bondage Queen
route to take based on deserved entitlement ? You know whats right
from wrong inherently ; why choose whats wrong for yourself Sharron ?
|
The first part of that last sentance was correct to a point and in a
personal sense; I do know what's right from wrong as afr as I am concerned,
and as a responsible adult human being I instill that morality code in my
being. You than ask "why choose whats wrong for yourself Sharron ?" I don't;
in fact quite to the contrary I choose what's right for myself. Quite
obviously what's right for me is different from what's right for you Dave: I
don't agree with constant dishonesty such as falsifying or fabricating
evidence and misquoting people, as well as posting faked abortion pictures
and all the heinous decietful practices you participate in online. I also
don't agree with your rank hypocrisy, nor your gross materialism, nor your
sexual fascination; but each to their own: I certainly wouldn't want to live
by your moral code: Nobody would ever trust me again, and I'd probably end
up getting sent to jail.
--
http://kkomp.com - Delving beyond the comfort zone.
http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk
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Dr.Hal0nf1r£$
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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mark wrote:
| Quote: |
X-No-Archive: yes
IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:28290510-8ece-4a3d-8e28-07f55ccb7271@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 2, 4:25 pm, "Dr.Hal0nf1r£$"
fem...@nospam.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
IlBeBa...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jul 2, 8:52 am, "mark" <no-oneh...@noads.com> wrote:
X-No-Archive: yes
[QUESTION}
"What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what
proclaimed them?"
It is alleged that morality is absolute and that atheism is a
choice made to escape such moral dogma.
So, can morality ever be absolute or is it eternally subjective.
Does subjective morality lead to decline in a society and is it
*immoral* to be an atheist.
Can there be a clear, measurable description of morality ...with
examples that are absolutely quantifiable.
ue
....more (un)answered questions next week.
[care of posters to this ng..]
REPLY: Good question Mark. The answer is most definetly YES....the
tenets of atheism leads to what we see as societal ills today as far
as immorality is concerned --- particularly sexual hedonism
(freedom) .Im going to devote a treatise to this subject in our new
Series.
REPLY: Did your Parents raise you to do as you wish , or, did they
teach you restraint for your own good and protection from getting
hurt ? Did they teach you to engage in whatever immorality was
worthwhile to you, or, did they try to instill absolute moral laws to
follow because they knew how important it would be for thier Daughter
in life ? Would they be happy knowing you chose the Bondage Queen
route to take based on deserved entitlement ? You know whats right
from wrong inherently ; why choose whats wrong for yourself Sharron ?
Tell me something dave.... having praised me for asking a "good"
question..... you fail to respond to the further questions
raised..... Can you explain why you cannot, or will not, answer
questions posed to you...?
Mark
|
Since Dave won't answer I'll answer on his behalf: He finds life terrifying:
He is incapable of making any correct decisions in any way whatsoever, he
doesn't have the intelligence to be able to cope with life, and the thought
of freedom to act unbridled without some artificial control mechanism
restricting his otherwise uncontrollable behavious in light of his lack of
common-sense just plain scares him almost to death: He's immature and
insecure. He's never had the chance to develop properly as an individual
human being for whatever reason, and after a catalogue of failures in his
earlier life he managed to find a corner to hide away from reality in under
the protection of his church from the big bad world out there.
--
http://kkomp.com - Delving beyond the comfort zone.
http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk
Personalised Desktop Computers |
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mark
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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|
X-No-Archive: yes
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-B13DD4.12024803072008@news.virginmedia.com...
| Quote: |
In article <Oa2dnbaBAfqUNPHVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-2D96F2.11094803072008@news.virginmedia.com...
In article <y8WdnSwelIOsP_HVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-5B03E4.10395603072008@news.virginmedia.com...
Now, I think that the belief that one should support one's family is
cross-cultural, exactly what this means in practice is not.
Hmm.... innate morality or an (innate?) evolutionary desire to
ensure
survival of the genetic 'family' perhaps..?
One set of parents goes out drinking every night and leaves the kids at
home to fend for themselves. Another set make enormous sacrifices to
ensure that their children get a good start in life.
Aren't we justified in saying that the second set are acting more
morally than the first, even though one might say there were biological
forces at work?
Well, I should be sure about this... but I'm not.
In some ways agreeing with you also confirms my notion that morals are
subjective. So the idea that we can decide the difference in 'moral
values'
suggests rather strongly that morals are therefore not absolute..!
I don't follow. Could you explain?
|
Yes.
Your example plainly posed a moral conundrum. The fact that we can try to
evaluate the *correct* morality, that we may agree, or disagree, on which
of the behaviours is more, or less desirable - the sheer fact that we do
that indicates that morality is subjective. There are no absolute right and
wrong morals... only those we choose (subjectively) to adhere to... they are
not inherent in our evolved being.
| Quote: |
On the other hand, in many cultures of this world (sadly so...) getting
children fed and watered is about the limits of parents capabilities to
ensuring they survive... never mind a "good start"
Well, the best possible start, then, given the circumstances. My point
still holds.
|
Well perhaps..... perhaps not.
| Quote: |
Also, there are some cultures where children are handed over to the
'village' community to be raised in the sense of education and cultural
learnings and where the parents take an almost inactive role in the
childs
upbringing.
Israeli kibbutz culture is like this, or was in its original form. Many
kibbutz dwellers have now reverted to more traditional forms of child
rearing. Even so, I would imagine that parents in all societies are
thinking they are doing the right thing for their offspring.
I'm sure we are saying the same thing here but I'm sort of looking for
the
evidence that suggests morality is not an absolute...[..I'm not asking
you
to provide that, by the way..! - just discussing it]
|
| Quote: |
I have suggested that basic values (e.g. fairness, honesty, limitation
of physical harm) are held across all cultures . These values are very
basic, and in practice one encounters all sorts of elaborations that are
determined by culture.
|
.... but they are not alwyn and there is much research to show that it is a
false premise to suggest that there are universal morals that hold true for
all cultures.
The evidence that suggests there ARE inherent moral traits are very
unpersuasive, in my view.
Mark |
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Alwyn
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
|
|
In article <ecydnY9kiaPgo_PVnZ2dnUVZ8rednZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
X-No-Archive: yes
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-B13DD4.12024803072008@news.virginmedia.com...
In article <Oa2dnbaBAfqUNPHVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-2D96F2.11094803072008@news.virginmedia.com...
In article <y8WdnSwelIOsP_HVnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-5B03E4.10395603072008@news.virginmedia.com...
Now, I think that the belief that one should support one's family is
cross-cultural, exactly what this means in practice is not.
Hmm.... innate morality or an (innate?) evolutionary desire to
ensure
survival of the genetic 'family' perhaps..?
One set of parents goes out drinking every night and leaves the kids at
home to fend for themselves. Another set make enormous sacrifices to
ensure that their children get a good start in life.
Aren't we justified in saying that the second set are acting more
morally than the first, even though one might say there were biological
forces at work?
Well, I should be sure about this... but I'm not.
In some ways agreeing with you also confirms my notion that morals are
subjective. So the idea that we can decide the difference in 'moral
values'
suggests rather strongly that morals are therefore not absolute..!
I don't follow. Could you explain?
Yes.
Your example plainly posed a moral conundrum. The fact that we can try to
evaluate the *correct* morality, that we may agree, or disagree, on which
of the behaviours is more, or less desirable - the sheer fact that we do
that indicates that morality is subjective.
|
Moral conundrum? I thought it was obvious to everyone which kind of
behaviour was most desirable in the above case. It is considered
admirable to put the children first.
| Quote: |
There are no absolute right and
wrong morals... only those we choose (subjectively) to adhere to... they are
not inherent in our evolved being.
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So you say.
| Quote: |
On the other hand, in many cultures of this world (sadly so...) getting
children fed and watered is about the limits of parents capabilities to
ensuring they survive... never mind a "good start"
Well, the best possible start, then, given the circumstances. My point
still holds.
Well perhaps..... perhaps not.
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It is a red herring.
<snip>
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I have suggested that basic values (e.g. fairness, honesty, limitation
of physical harm) are held across all cultures . These values are very
basic, and in practice one encounters all sorts of elaborations that are
determined by culture.
... but they are not alwyn and there is much research to show that it is a
false premise to suggest that there are universal morals that hold true for
all cultures.
|
Did you read the Ridley book recommended by Ian? There is a review of it
by our very own Jeffrey Goldberg and his missus here:
<http://goldmark.org/jeff/papers/ridley/ridley.pdf>
Did you also read some of the stuff by Shweder I pointed to? You might
want to start here:
<http://web.ceu.hu/legal/ind_vs_state/Shweder_paper_2002.htm>
| Quote: |
The evidence that suggests there ARE inherent moral traits are very
unpersuasive, in my view.
|
I think you've already made up your mind and will not be persuaded
otherwise. Perhaps you've spend too much time in the company of a
certain Dave from Lake Villa.
Alwyn |
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Ian Smith
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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Dr.Hal0nf1r£$ wrote:
| Quote: |
... and after a catalogue of failures in his
earlier life he managed to find a corner to hide away from reality in under
the protection of his church from the big bad world out there.
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I've rumbled him!
His earlier transgressions and failures may be what gives rise to
his claim that he was an atheist.
I suspect that his long list of "sins" may be convenient to blame on
atheists by claiming that he was an atheist at the time.
In one easy sleight of hand he has effectively:
- excused himself, now a good christian (and hence now being
absolved), of the sins
- blamed his sinfulness on atheism (and atheists in general)
- found a stick with which he can hit atheists
I suspect that we now have a motive for his claim to have been an
atheist, when in fact he was just a closet christian (and a sinful
one at that).
regards, Ian |
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mark
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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X-No-Archive: yes
"Alwyn" <alwyn@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alwyn-AEDC20.08554805072008@news.virginmedia.com...
| Quote: |
In article <ecydnY9kiaPgo_PVnZ2dnUVZ8rednZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
The evidence that suggests there ARE inherent moral traits are very
unpersuasive, in my view.
I think you've already made up your mind and will not be persuaded
otherwise. Perhaps you've spend too much time in the company of a
certain Dave from Lake Villa.
|
whoa...... hang on.
I started out saying there are two camps in the search for the innateness
(..or absoluteness) of morality..
You are giving me the one side... that's all.
There is quite equally, research and opinion that suggests otherwise..
shall I post the research/books for that?
You may wish to access this for further understanding, for example, on the
moral conundrums such as *harming* of innocents. Quite an obvious notion of
genetic morality..
E Turiel (2002) The Culture of Morality: Social Development, Context, and
Conflict [Cambridge University Press]
RJR Blair(1995) A cognitive developmental approach to morality, Cognition,
57
Another common argument for innate morality is the notion of fairness.
Indeed, you actually used that word.
Look at the 2004 research by Athropologists lead by Henrich (..Boyd, Bowles,
Camerer, Fehr, Gintis) Foundations of human sociality [Oxford University
Press]
This was a survey/research into 15 small scale societies that were asked to
play 'ultimatum' games and draws conclusions into the differences that
culture appear to impose rather than genetic innateness..
You appear to be arguing the case from a moral nativist viewpoint - what
Hauser called 'temperate nativism' (of whom Fiske and Shewder are
supporters) - that depends upon, or derives from, a more abstract moral
competence notion.
Accusing me of being entrenched doesn't help, neither does it add value
to the position your are proposing.
Of course, it is exactly your position that dilv has been asserting for a
very long time...namely, that morality is absolute or innate.
There is little evidence for that... there are assertions and theories but
there is a scholarly balance on this issue as far as I can see, at least,
with research interpretations veering both ways.
Mark |
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Alwyn
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: Re: THE atheist question and (no) answer series.. |
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In article <CKOdnUeC2sNa-vLVnZ2dnUVZ8gOdnZ2d@bt.com>,
"mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote:
If you must have this line, why not put it in the headers, where it
belongs?
| Quote: |
whoa...... hang on.
I started out saying there are two camps in the search for the innateness
(..or absoluteness) of morality..
You are giving me the one side... that's all.
|
Consider me duly chastised!
<snip>
| Quote: |
Accusing me of being entrenched doesn't help, neither does it add value
to the position your are proposing.
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I did think you came over that way, but I take it all back.
| Quote: |
Of course, it is exactly your position that dilv has been asserting for a
very long time...namely, that morality is absolute or innate.
|
I cannot speak for Dave, but I think he would say that true morality is
dep-endent on God. For me, that is a kind of relativism.
| Quote: |
There is little evidence for that... there are assertions and theories but
there is a scholarly balance on this issue as far as I can see, at least,
with research interpretations veering both ways.
|
Here we can agree.
Alwyn |
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