Philosophu Talk Philosophu Talk    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact your Goto page Previous  1, 2          Philosophu Talk Forum Index -> Philosophu Talk View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message David Wynne-Griffiths Guest Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact Quote: On Jun 26, 1:34 am, davidwg <davi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote: It is curious that theists have such a hang up about what they call sin which in many cases are harmless but pleasurable activities they wish to ban because they hate the idea that people might enjoy them. They think that only they have morality despite the fact that in general atheists are more law abiding and less likely to break the law than theists. Then there is no such thing as sexual IMmorality ? When did that change from being immoral ? How is it harmless ? Perhaps even more curious is the obvious hang up about sex! What constitutes sexual immorality and what is harmful about consensual sex between adults in private? What are these allegedly absolute moral laws? and who or what proclaimed them? -- ******** DavidWG ******** Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Alwyn Guest Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact In article <0ed545c2-66db-48ed-aa07-c13c89fd5b47@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, "IlBeBauck@gmail.com" <IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote: Quote: On Jun 25, 4:29 pm, Ian Smith <news0807REMOVEC...@orrery.e4ward.com wrote: Why should it? Why would you have an impression that an atheist would be any less moral than a theist? Don't forget that the religious simply superimpose a set of mythical, superstitious, false morals instead of rationally derived morals. REPLY: Because they uphold Moral Relativism . Why should an atheist force himself to become absolutely moral when he doesnt believe in absolute moral laws ? If you make your moral judgments with reference to some god or other, then you too asre a moral relativist; your morality is relative to your god. Plato, Aristotle and Kant, on the other hand, advocated truly absolute moral principles that were not dependent on any god. Alwyn Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor sandi Guest Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact On Jun 25, 1:43 pm, "IlBeBa...@gmail.com" <IlBeBa...@gmail.com> wrote: Quote: REPLY:  Yes, I have compelling evidence for a personal moral Creator and Judge... Sure you do, but you have also asserted that humans and dinosaurs actually lived together in past history, which provides us all with compelling evidence that you're completely full of shit Do you ever intend to seek help with your delusions? Sandy Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Ian Smith Guest Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact mark wrote: Quote: X-No-Archive: yes IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 26, 1:34 am, davidwg <davi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote: It is curious that theists have such a hang up about what they call sin which in many cases are harmless but pleasurable activities they wish to ban because they hate the idea that people might enjoy them. They think that only they have morality despite the fact that in general atheists are more law abiding and less likely to break the law than theists. REPLY: Then there is no such thing as sexual IMmorality ? When did that change from being immoral ? How is it harmless ? .....maybe YOU could explain how morality becomes involved in sexual relations between consenting adults....? We can discuss the meaning and subsequent impact of the word " harmless" after.... [..indeed, we could discuss the meaning of "moral" as well but I'm not sure your up to that level of comprehension just yet..] Well, lets try him out Mark: Dave, I have a relatively (pun again!) good idea of what constitutes moral behaviour. I believe that the aids epidemic in Africa is a dreadful thing - leaving women (and men for that matter) widowed and children orphaned and starving. I support the UN's efforts to deliver relief to these people. Christians (Roman Catholics and US evangelicals) have repeatedly obstructed these efforts, blocking funding for any organisation that doesn't follow an "exclusively abstinence based" approach i.e. they cannot therefore provide education on the use of condoms and they cannot distribute condoms. We know that condoms work, and work well - well enough to be able to stop an aids epidemic in time. We know that abstinence based programmes don't work (I repeat, for the hard of thinking: DO NOT WORK). They don't work in the US and they don't work in Africa - fact. So, the Christians are actively killing people every day with their blocking of this help. I call this immoral. Plain and simple, clear cut, immoral. regards, Ian Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Ian Smith Guest Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote: Quote: Why should it? Why would you have an impression that an atheist would be any less moral than a theist? Don't forget that the religious simply superimpose a set of mythical, superstitious, false morals instead of rationally derived morals. REPLY: Because they uphold Moral Relativism . Why should an atheist force himself to become absolutely moral when he doesnt believe in absolute moral laws ? He doesn't. He uses a system of rationally derived morals and rejects your "absolute morals" as superstition and mythology and I ask again... Why would you have an impression that an atheist would be any less moral than a theist? Don't forget that the religious simply superimpose a set of mythical, superstitious, false morals instead of rationally derived morals. regards, Ian Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Dr.Hal0nf1r£$ Guest Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact Ian Smith wrote: Quote: On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:26:19 +0100, IlBeBauck@gmail.com IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote: n. Im not asking anyone to hold thier breathe, and the question remains : If you knew there were a final Judge, how would that impact your life ? It wouldn't - at all. Why should it? Why would you have an impression that an atheist would be any less moral than a theist? Don't forget that the religious simply superimpose a set of mythical, superstitious, false morals instead of rationally derived morals. regards, Ian REPLY: Because they uphold Moral Relativism . Why should an atheist force himself to become absolutely moral when he doesnt believe in absolute moral laws ? He doesn't. He uses a system of rationally derived morals and rejects your "absolute morals" as superstition and mythology and I ask again... Why would you have an impression that an atheist would be any less moral than a theist? Don't forget that the religious simply superimpose a set of mythical, superstitious, false morals instead of rationally derived morals. regards, Ian Dimwit has enough evidence to cause *him* to believe: Under normal circumstances such evidence would be something as little as : "The Bible says if you throw yourself down from a high place you could die; and that's correct: So if the Bible is correct there it must be correct everywhere else, yes?" Dimwit instantly sees the light, switches it off to save energy, and is converted. So you'd imagine that converting away from Xianity would also be as simple: But no - When he'd been converted they told him "People will tell you that it's a load of rubbish; but if you listen to them you'll go to Hell. Everything else is wrong and evil and Xianity is right: Unless you believe that with your whole mind, heart, and soul, you'll be sent to Hell. The Xian way is the only true way and you must believe it despite what any1 else says or you'll go to hell like every non-Xian will." So he's trapped and suckered. -- http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk Personalised Desktop Computers Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Dr.Hal0nf1r£$ Guest Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact Ian Smith wrote: Quote: mark wrote: X-No-Archive: yes IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 26, 1:34 am, davidwg <davi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote: It is curious that theists have such a hang up about what they call sin which in many cases are harmless but pleasurable activities they wish to ban because they hate the idea that people might enjoy them. They think that only they have morality despite the fact that in general atheists are more law abiding and less likely to break the law than theists. REPLY: Then there is no such thing as sexual IMmorality ? When did that change from being immoral ? How is it harmless ? .....maybe YOU could explain how morality becomes involved in sexual relations between consenting adults....? We can discuss the meaning and subsequent impact of the word " harmless" after.... [..indeed, we could discuss the meaning of "moral" as well but I'm not sure your up to that level of comprehension just yet..] Well, lets try him out Mark: Dave, I have a relatively (pun again!) good idea of what constitutes moral behaviour. I believe that the aids epidemic in Africa is a dreadful thing - leaving women (and men for that matter) widowed and children orphaned and starving. I support the UN's efforts to deliver relief to these people. Christians (Roman Catholics and US evangelicals) have repeatedly obstructed these efforts, blocking funding for any organisation that doesn't follow an "exclusively abstinence based" approach i.e. they cannot therefore provide education on the use of condoms and they cannot distribute condoms. We know that condoms work, and work well - well enough to be able to stop an aids epidemic in time. We know that abstinence based programmes don't work (I repeat, for the hard of thinking: DO NOT WORK). They don't work in the US and they don't work in Africa - fact. So, the Christians are actively killing people every day with their blocking of this help. I call this immoral. Plain and simple, clear cut, immoral. regards, Ian Dimwit will avoid this post like the plague: Watch this space... -- http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk Personalised Desktop Computers Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor mark Guest Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact X-No-Archive: yes <IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote in message news:0ed545c2-66db-48ed-aa07-c13c89fd5b47@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... REPLY: Because they uphold Moral Relativism . Why should an atheist force himself to become absolutely moral when he doesnt believe in absolute moral laws ? Yes. Quite. Judeo-Christians in US prisons as a percentage of the total population: 83.761%. Atheists 8-16% of the USA population, but only 0.21% of the prison population. We can deduce the *sinfullness* of observing strict moral values from these then... As a percentage, in the US, more christians are more likely to be more sinful - and end up in prison - than atheists. Far more. About 400 times more likely statistically.... Understand that..? 400 times more likely to be sinful as a christian than an atheist. It's breathtaking... Some facts for you to get your head around my little poppet.. Facts that run completely contrary (..like many others you make) to your assertions about atheists...... .....the gaps get ever smaller for you to survive in oh wondrous one.. Mark (thanks to paul grieg on ukph for the stats...) Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Alwyn Guest Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact In article <GeydnbWYx8V2kfjVnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@bt.com>, "mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote: Quote: Judeo-Christians in US prisons as a percentage of the total population: 83.761%. Atheists 8-16% of the USA population, but only 0.21% of the prison population. We can deduce the *sinfullness* of observing strict moral values from these then... As a percentage, in the US, more christians are more likely to be more sinful - and end up in prison - than atheists. Far more. About 400 times more likely statistically.... Understand that..? 400 times more likely to be sinful as a christian than an atheist. It's breathtaking... That is a misuse of statistics if I ever saw one! Assuming that self-declared atheists are at 8% in the general US population and 0.2% in the prison population, we can say that prison inmates there are 40 times less likely to declare themselves atheist than people on the outside. One possible reason why this is so is that atheists do not get to attend chapel and receive no pastoral care, two things that may be especially valuable to someone who is cooped up in a cell all day and every day. Another possibility is that prisoners are mostly not the kind of people who think about these things and give the 'default' or expected answer when asked about their religion. Yet again, you could say that atheists are cleverer than average, which makes it less likely their crimes are detected. Even with these caveats, this is a good message about atheists, which should embarrass Dave and his ilk. Alwyn Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Ian Smith Guest Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact Alwyn wrote: Quote: In article <GeydnbWYx8V2kfjVnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@bt.com>, "mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote: Judeo-Christians in US prisons as a percentage of the total population: 83.761%. Atheists 8-16% of the USA population, but only 0.21% of the prison population. We can deduce the *sinfullness* of observing strict moral values from these then... As a percentage, in the US, more christians are more likely to be more sinful - and end up in prison - than atheists. Far more. About 400 times more likely statistically.... Understand that..? 400 times more likely to be sinful as a christian than an atheist. It's breathtaking... That is a misuse of statistics if I ever saw one! Assuming that self-declared atheists are at 8% in the general US population and 0.2% in the prison population, we can say that prison inmates there are 40 times less likely to declare themselves atheist than people on the outside. One possible reason why this is so is that atheists do not get to attend chapel and receive no pastoral care, two things that may be especially valuable to someone who is cooped up in a cell all day and every day. Another possibility is that prisoners are mostly not the kind of people who think about these things and give the 'default' or expected answer when asked about their religion. Yet again, you could say that atheists are cleverer than average, which makes it less likely their crimes are detected. Even with these caveats, this is a good message about atheists, which should embarrass Dave and his ilk. The other issue here is that, if you are looking for early parole, then "finding god" is a useful plus-point for an early release and getting the pastor's support is a bonus. I could quite easily "find god" in the same circumstances, for a short time at least! The figures do however show clearly that theists have no moral advantage over atheists. regards, Ian Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor mark Guest Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact X-No-Archive: yes "Ian Smith" <news0807REMOVECAPS@orrery.e4ward.com> wrote in message news:5OCdnScF9cl5ZvjVRVnygQA@posted.plusnet... Quote: Alwyn wrote: In article <GeydnbWYx8V2kfjVnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@bt.com>, "mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> wrote: Judeo-Christians in US prisons as a percentage of the total population: 83.761%. Atheists 8-16% of the USA population, but only 0.21% of the prison population. We can deduce the *sinfullness* of observing strict moral values from these then... As a percentage, in the US, more christians are more likely to be more sinful - and end up in prison - than atheists. Far more. About 400 times more likely statistically.... Understand that..? 400 times more likely to be sinful as a christian than an atheist. It's breathtaking... That is a misuse of statistics if I ever saw one! ) shame poor old dilv couldn't work that out.... Quote: Assuming that self-declared atheists are at 8% in the general US population and 0.2% in the prison population, we can say that prison inmates there are 40 times less likely to declare themselves atheist than people on the outside. One possible reason why this is so is that atheists do not get to attend chapel and receive no pastoral care, two things that may be especially valuable to someone who is cooped up in a cell all day and every day. Another possibility is that prisoners are mostly not the kind of people who think about these things and give the 'default' or expected answer when asked about their religion. Yet again, you could say that atheists are cleverer than average, which makes it less likely their crimes are detected. Even with these caveats, this is a good message about atheists, which should embarrass Dave and his ilk. The other issue here is that, if you are looking for early parole, then "finding god" is a useful plus-point for an early release and getting the pastor's support is a bonus. I could quite easily "find god" in the same circumstances, for a short time at least! Is there, anecdotal or otherwise, any suggestion that US parole boards actually take that into account.....? Assuming, of course, the prisoner is *entitled* to apply for parole. However, of course, the early release or change in sentence doesn't alter or affect the initial *sinning* or 'loss of morality' by those claiming to be of some (or none) religious persuasion or other...... unless, of course, the stats are derived from a prison consensus rather than from records..... Quote: The figures do however show clearly that theists have no moral advantage over atheists. Yes. I wouldn't fight to the death over these stats but it really does suggest, contrary to the dilv assertions that (..as I would guess most of us in here already know and accept) atheists are no less moral than christians and it may be, in the US model, that they (atheists) are less likely to commit crime - not just number wise but as a percentage of both the general, and prison, population. Whilst these stats can be interpreted and possibly questioned in many ways it does seem to me that it may well be a *factual* start point that adds more probability to the idea of morality from a religious viewpoint than the dreamed up, subjective, unfounded assertions of dilv and his ilk that christians possess morality (..or more of it!) whereas atheists don't.... Mark Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor David Wynne-Griffiths Guest Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact The message <A9SdndeeyPYijfvVRVnyiwA@bt.com> from "mark" <no-onehere@noads.com> contains these words: Quote: Whilst these stats can be interpreted and possibly questioned in many ways it does seem to me that it may well be a *factual* start point that adds more probability to the idea of morality from a religious viewpoint than the dreamed up, subjective, unfounded assertions of dilv and his ilk that christians possess morality (..or more of it!) whereas atheists don't.... Morality is not restricted to theists and atheists if anything tend to have a higher morality because it is not coloured by the distortions of religion. A large part of the prison population is illiterate and composed of people with what are called learning difficulties. On the whole atheists are more intelligent and better educated than theists and far less likely to end up in prison. -- ******** DavidWG ******** Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Jeffrey Goldberg Guest Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: If you knew you had a future Judge, how would it impact In <A9SdndeeyPYijfvVRVnyiwA@bt.com>, mark wrote: Quote: The figures do however show clearly that theists have no moral advantage over atheists. Yes. I wouldn't fight to the death over these stats For me, the real problem with those stats is that there is no control for level of education. We know that there is a strong correlation between level of education and atheism, likewise there is a strong negative correlation between level of education and incarceration. So those stats are probably largely explainable by level of education. What I find most interesting is that various social ills (sexually transmitted diseases, violent crimes, divorce, teen pregnancy) are all well correlated with religiosity in prosperous democracies. The more religious a country (or state in the US) is, the higher the rates of all of these problems. It is certainly clear that in the limited cases where there is evidence of a relationship between atheism and ethical behaviour, it comes out in favor of the the atheists. This, like all evidence, will have no impact on ItIsDave, but it is worth noting. This is hardly surprising. Someone who avoids unethical behaviour because they fear punishment in an afterlife seems intrinsically less moral than a person who avoids such behaviour because they feel that it is wrong. After all, consider DILV's question about final judgment, but reverse it. Would he live differently if he didn't live in fear of such judgment? Cheers, -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ I rarely read top-posted, over-quoting or HTML postings. http://improve-usenet.org/ Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         Philosophu Talk Forum Index -> Philosophu Talk All times are GMT Goto page Previous  1, 2 Page 2 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Philosophu Talk----------------Philosophu Talk  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Australian Debt Consolidation Experts medical insurance Wedding Invitation Annunci di escort, accompagnatrici e massaggiatrici Kontakte Erwachsene Affiliate Marketing Car Insurance cover Make Your Own Website Cheap calls to Saudi Arabia Long island Cleaning service black mold UK Swingers Genuine Contacts Site Janitorial Supplies Hoover Vacuum Parts 76 Attacks blocked Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group